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Toughlove For Israel

Last weekend Ron Paul said the unthinkable: Israel needs to stand up on its own two feet and stop siphoning billions of dollars from American taxpayers. He said: “Why make Israel so dependent? They can’t defend their borders without coming to us.”

[gasp] Blasphemy! What in God’s Name??? You can’t say that! What’s he gonna do next, start cutting farts during a church service?

And yet, Ron Paul was just echoing what conservative s have been saying for decades. Think of the pride and dignity Israel will have when it starts to pull its own weight and becomes a productive member of the world community.

Sure, it’s easier to just lie back and keep taking handouts from hardworking taxpayers. But it’s a trap. The Nanny State is seductive but it’s treacherous. Deep down inside, Israel knows how unhealthy it is to be so needy and dependent. The Welfare State is a destroyer of incentives; it saps the work ethic.

Israel has been suffering under the Tyranny of Low Expectations . The kindest thing we could do is stop these addictive welfare payments NOW. It wouldn’t be a popular decision but it’s the right thing to do. Someday Israel will thank us.

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16 Responses to “Toughlove For Israel”

  1. I guess the possibility of being bombed by a nuke is a little different than being bombed by sperm.

    Maybe we should also cut the strings restricting them from doing what they need to do.

  2. Lisa,
    What strings? Did you notice them carpet bombing southern Beirut? How about putting a great big wall up around other people’s property? Or the rocket strikes on Gaza? What on Earth do you think they need to do that they’re not doing now? Practically the only military option left is genocide. And I don’t think Israel needs to do this, or even wants to.

  3. Paul with the history of your country you’re complaining?
    Remember we had to kick your f#@(! arses out.
    You know you sound like I am for the terrorists only if they are killing liberals,ath eists,minori ties and poor people.
    Don’t tell me you support terrorism Paul.

  4. Lisa,
    Please read more carefully. You said that we should take the strings off. I just asked, given what Israel is currently doing, what you think they should be doing but aren’t? They’re already assassinatin g people and blowing shit up. What is the missing military option you see that the US is hampering them in doing, exactly?

    Nowhere did I even come close to implying that you supported any sort of terrorism. Either you managed to read a different post, or you can’t answer the question and are trying to distract by making unfounded accusations. If the latter, I’m disappointed . I expect that sort of nonsense from SteveIL, not the more sensible commentators here.

  5. Paul if you read between the lines I was implying that you must support terrorism. The point I was trying to make is Israel is only defending against terrorists but you are against them doing that unless they were a poor minority country.
    Just like the United States they go out of their way to prevent innocent civilian casualty.The y don’t purposely target Innocent people like the people you are defending do. For all we know all those Palestinians are terrorists. Just like you don’t give any republican the benefit of the doubt maybe we shouldn’t give it to them either.
    Paul you are an oxymoron.

  6. And you still haven’t answered the question. Any particular reason for that?

  7. And again, where’s the defence of terrorism? All I’m pointing out is that the mythical ’strings’ you say the US is exerting over Israel don’t seem to exist. I’ve asked you twice now what you think Israel should be doing that it isn’t, and so far all you’ve managed is a load of insult. When you’re ready to discuss like an adult rather than just throw a tantrum, let me know.

  8. Why should Israel need our help in their defense? Perhaps because Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations, most of which have started wars of aggression against them in the last century. Perhaps because there are billions of Muslims who hate the nation and their people, drawing maps of a Palestine without an Israel, attending “World Without Israel” conventions, sending support to families of suicide bombers, sending rockets into Israel on a daily basis. I don’t know…that sort of thing. Israel is supposed to survive without support in a sea of billions of bitter enemies whose daily prayer is to wipe Israel off the map? Every country in the world needs allies. If not the U. S., then who? France? Israelis might as well kiss their asses goodbye.

  9. I didn’t mean to shut down the conversation  , just move it in a slightly different direction.

  10. Craig,
    There wasn’t a conversation . I asked Lisa a question based on what she’d said in the firspost, she insulted me repeatedly. That’s not really a conversation .

    Relating to your point, several of those countries have signed peace treaties with Israel. Some of the ones that haven’t still have outstanding territorial issues, i.e. Israel is occupying part their land. Perhaps the constant, unstinting support the US is what prevents Israel from accepting the reality that it can’t hold onto those lands in perpetuity? I don’t think anyone’s saying that if Israel was attacked America and allies shouldn’t intervene militarily, but Israel has refused to sign any sort of mutual defence treaty because those treaties would require their borders to be defined and too many people in Israel want a greater Israel

    If it was wrong for Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait, which it was, or for Syria to invade Lebanon, which it was, why isn’t it wrong that Israel’s invaded the surrounding area? I mean, Israel taxes the Palestinians but they can’t vote for that government. I’d have thought that would hit home in America more, given the rallying cry against the evil British back in the day.

  11. Yes, Israel is still occupying some of the land of others and, in building settlements on that occupied land is contrary to internationa l and Israeli law, as I understand it. But as I also understand it, occupying the land, sans settlements, is perfectly legal to prevent acts of aggression of the terrorist sort. No they can’t hold onto those lands in perpetuity, unless Palestinians continue to fire rockets into Israel and sends suicide bombers into Israel in perpetuity.

    I freely admit my ignorance on this matter: which invasions by Israel are you referring to?

    I know that (or at least I assume that) Ron Paul would lobby for cutting off funds not just to Israel but to Arab countries as well, including to the Palestinians so, in that regard, I assume that he’d be an equal opportunity denier of taxpayers’ dollars to other countries but there’s still the matter of Israel being outnumbered by her enemies.

    Just as a matter of curiosity, what did allied nations do to intervene during the various wars of aggression against Israel in the last century? Sometimes the gaps in my knowledge astound even me. :^) My guess is, our intervention s on Israel’s behalf didn’t amount to much but I’m always glad to be educated. It just seems to me that, without aid by the U. S. Israel would not be as well equipped for defending itself.

    Also, I would assume that Israel would tax Palestinians who work in Israel but aside from that, what other forms of taxation does Israel take from Palestinians  ? Here in the U. S., legal resident foreigners and even many illegal “guests” are taxed but cannot vote for our government. That would be because they aren’t U. S. citizens. Is Israel levying taxes against Palestinians whether they work or do commerce in Israel or not?

  12. And having signed peace treaties with Israel, as Egypt has done, does not prevent Egyptians from aiding Israel’s enemies, not to mention Iran’s relationship of arming, equipping and training Hezbollah, Hamas and others. Nations having signed peace treaties doesn’t prevent those nations’ peoples from taking sides in the fight or even prevent those nations from turning a blind eye to aid going to Israel’s enemies. If we shut down aid to Israel, I doubt that there would be an end to the aid being sent to Israel’s enemies by Muslim nations that have not signed non-aggressi on pacts with Israel. No. Sorry. I won’t support cutting aid to Israel under current conditions. Nobody else needs agree with me but I won’t support it.

  13. Craig,
    They didn’t acquire the Occupied Territory by force of personality, now did they? Generally when arms are used to acquire territory, it’s called an invasion. That’s what I’m referring to.

    Israel is not returning tax receipts to the Palestinian authority (which, to be honest, makes a great deal of sense. If Hamas don’t recognise the state of Israel , how can they receive monies from them?). That seems to say that Israel is taxing outside the official borders. The taxes were previously being collected and there was no authority to turn them over to, IIRC.

    You are correct in the outcome. But Israel knows that the US will always support it, (i mean you’ve supported its annexation, human rights abuses, illegal nuclear weapons and everything so far, so why should it think you’ll stop now) and as long as that is the case, it has no incentive to talk or make peace. on reasonable terms. Squaring that circle is rather tricky, I would think. Certainly beyond my pay grade.

  14. Craig,
    And before I get told off, no, it isn’t just Israel’s responsibili ty, but Israel is the only side the US is paying for, and we are discussing that payment.

  15. Paul,

    I sort of was under the impression that the occupied areas were occupied during one of the various wars of aggression against Israel and were done for defensive purposes. Maybe I’m wrong on that but that was my impression. For example, according to this article in Wikipedia, the West Bank was captured during a (from Israel’s point of view) defensive war in 1967. Well seems to me entirely reasonable in fending off an invasion by one’s enemies, taking control over territory to form a buffer against one’s enemy is entirely reasonable and not what I would call an invasion. It was Israel’s enemies that invaded Israel in that war. The settlements are another thing but I believe that internationa l law permits this.

    http://en.wi wiki/Status_ of_territori es_captured_ by_Israel

    As you say, not returning tax receipts to a government that refuses to accept your existence and who is actively working to destroy one makes a lot of sense. I’m no expert in Israeli or internationa l law so I really don’t have much to say about that other than Israel shouldn’t be forced by law to fund her enemies who seek her destruction.

    But I really see our continued aid to Israel to be a matter of Israel’s continued existence and while I do not support Israel’s settling the occupied/dis puted lands against even Israeli law, I don’t support withholding aid from her until she removes all the settlements. Her enemies pose an existential threat to Israel and as long as that’s the case, I support continuing to support Israel. If there comes a time where everyone in the world accepts the right of every other country to exist and its people the right to be free from terrorism, there would come a time when I would say that continuing aid might no longer be necessary.

    Israel is the only side that America is supporting? Really? Isn’t it the case that, until Hamas was elected to govern Palestine, we were giving them millions of dollars in aid each year and that the only reason we withhold it now is that we have no intention of funding a terrorist organization hell bent on destroying our ally, Israel? Aren’t we sending millions of dollars to Egypt? We may be sending aid to other Muslim nations as well but I know we are/were giving aid to those two.

  16. We stop them from retaliating Paul. Why didn’t they take out Iran’s nuclear plants yet?

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